State

cammed says,
Don't take it personally. And know, I don't hate anyone. Not even John, Jane, or Cher's daughter!

You mean Cher's son Chaz? Glad you are trying to think progressively, that to me is real progress. PG

From: cammed
Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 09:12 PM
Which leads me to my point; which is this: 100 years ago, discussion of gay people hooking up, demanding rights, and acting like the world "wronged them" in some unexpected way would have been ludicrous. So, by extrapolation, I am merely imagining the future. Don't take it personally. And know, I don't hate anyone. Not even John, Jane, or Cher's daughter!
Ignore SenderComplain About This Message
From: cammed
Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 09:13 PM
I'm just amazed by the discussions that take place today, so I'm trying to adjust by being a progressive thinker.
.

Hoooking up, demanding rights, a world that wronged them, Okay I have not been on here for a while so time for a timely story as to whats going on in our lives. This last week my partner received an e-mail from her youngest of two daughters, we haven’t heard from since the orange county court system took them away from her based on lies told by her EX- Mormon husband, with new wife #2 in hand and making some sort of GAME out of winning custody of their children. Simply put he won, by lies told and made sure the children would lie also, after all were just Lesbians and we aren’t human. So after all these years and now he’s been re-married a 3rd time our daughters want to have a relationship, a few simplistic nice e-mails were sent back and forth, and a curtain was drawn with lies of acceptance of me yet again .What doesn’t kill you makes you stronger and we knew this was a complete about face and also they were taken from us at ages 7&11 now they are 18&22 our youngest a Mormon and the other we will just say had a light go on and is not a Morman.My partner of 15 years asked them to tell her what was said in the courts as we never were told the allegations to have the children removed from their mothers custody(after all this is BEHIND THE ORANGE CURTAIN)It took some persuasion and a few of the lies surfaced the sad part now is they believe them…The e-mail was yet just another ploy to get my partner removed from this LIFESTYLE and her blood family will only except her back if she did so. End of story goes’ sadly like this, a FINAL letter was sent just yesterday and stated as my partners last response, I will always s see your father as trying to win some sort of sick game, and in doing so he is like a pedophile he has raped your true memories of my self and my loving partner ,she put a roof over your heads when he could not, food in your mouths when he could not, and yes even loved you when having to put up with heinous accusations both from you two and from my blood family. I see nothing has changed and you and your father have taken my parents and filled them with hateful lies, my father went to his grave just recently (she was told not to attend) not knowing the truth. You are not to contact me ever again and if our paths cross I will not recognize you, please move on as you are dead to me now and are not to be trusted in my life (I remind you this is a letter to her kids now grown) If you or anyone in my family DTH doesn’t respect these terms I will get a restraining order sent to you. That was the jest of the actual letter just sent to them yesterday .And if anyone here thinks this is just a LUDICROUS(as stated above in post)situation, I can testify this is what happens when rights are taken away and when a system can see people as second class with no rights like that of a man who was even thousands in arrears of child alamoney.We LGBT’S must fight for our rights that are constitutionally ours.DAMN THAT MAN TO HELL, YOU HAVE NO IDEA OF WHAT PAINS WE HAVE ENDURED AND ESPEACIALLY MY LOVE. Sorry if I have error in grammar or have miss spelled as you can imagine I am a bit shaken .Now a question of all of you ,after all in sharing this pain it’s only fair.Is your marriage as strong as our relationship? Could you endure this? LGBT’s are strong individuals we have to be it is certainly not a choice as some lame brains would have you think. We only want to be seen as equal and NO LESS. That is our fight and my partner and I have lost a lot but have gained in the love in each other even stronger. Could you?

Tempest, I am sorry to hear of your struggles and for all the barriers in your life and the life of your partner. It is disheartening to know that so many lives were shaken through all this drama. It is sad to know that weakness of humans can give way to such shortcomings and error as divorce, homosexuality, hatred, and insecurity. But this is the reality. And all too often, the circumstances in which we find ourselves are at least partly because of our own decisions, our own actions, and our selfish pursuits. I do see both sides of this argument, and I don't particularly see that anyone was more wrong than the other. On one hand, I see a error-prone dad who, despite his faults, wants to create an environment for raising children suitable to his beliefs and in harmony with traditionalism. I don't see anything wrong with this. On the other hand, I see an individual who accepted a highly alternative lifestyle super far away from a former way of life. Indeed, neither of these two were the same two people who once got married. It's heartbreaking. It's tragedy. It's painful to even think about.

I know people who have gotten married, had children, and right in the middle of life, probably when circumstances were not comfortable, or suitable, or enjoyable, have jumped ship, proclaimed their homosexual lifestyle, and left the life of those who loved them in ruins.

You say LGBT individuals are strong. The problem is that people are only strong for the thing they want. So heterosexualism doesn't come easy. Who are you to say that heterosexuals aren't any less strong than you? In fact, maybe you are weaker for bending to the gravity of homosexuality. It's a two way street. And I argue that everything we do in this life is a choice. People are compelled to do things every day; to kill, to fight, to hurt, to damage, to indulge...And a great majority of people resist those urges because they have a mind and they realize their mind controls their actions. Thoughts are thoughts, and thank GOD we don't all act upon our thoughts.

In this case, there was a lot of actions coming self-centered thinking, both ways. I don't see any other way to cut it.

From: cammed
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 09:57 PM
Tempest, I am sorry to hear of your struggles and for all the barriers in your life and the life of your partner. It is disheartening to know that so many lives were shaken through all this drama. It is sad to know that weakness of humans can give way to such shortcomings and error as divorce,

The error unfortunately is the fact that she even tried to be something she is not, STRAIGHT. She was 4th generation Mormon and in reading that alone says more than I can type on here. If you are not true to yourself and listen to your soul, you are definitely in line with that train wreck. She gave it her all and never denied him anything; she knew it was a huge mistake even as vows were exchanged in the temple. She had done all this and wore the white pearls and went on to even live in Utah and had him go to BYU. As a married man that then could not keep his Johnny in his pants for long as he stated” it’s too distracting here with all these single women” and although he cheated she then decided to have that first child to settle him down and make thire family whole as the church would see it. He never held down a job for more than 6 months and when having to stand in line to buy food with food stamps... this good Mormon of a man stepped away from the line for he was too embarrassed to stand with his wife and child.

homosexuality, hatred, and insecurity. But this is the reality. And all too often, the circumstances in which we find ourselves are at least partly because of our own decisions, our own actions, and our selfish pursuits. I do see both sides of this argument, and I don't particularly see that anyone was more wrong than the other. On one hand, I see a error-prone dad who, despite his faults, wants to create an environment for raising children suitable to his beliefs and in harmony with traditionalism. I don't see anything wrong with this.

A reality that it’s time to change, I have now given you a picture of who she married. Suitable to his beliefs are what lost us our kids as his beliefs are that we don’t count being that were lesbians.
And LIES are what this whole initiative is based on. This is why Legislation will probably be the end result in ever getting our constitutional rights to marry and protect our loved ones. I love the fact that so many are blinded by the bases of our government THE SEPERATION OF CHURCH AND STATE its those words that made our fore fathers flee to this wonderful country and why we die on the fields alone across the globe. I love our country for the freedom to even post things such as the things I have shared in prior posts that would definitely get a woman stoned to death in other countries for how dare she speak out against a man. Do you see anything wrong yet is my question?

accepted a highly alternative lifestyle super far away from a former way of life. Indeed, neither of these two were the same two people who once got married. It's heartbreaking. It's tragedy. It's painful to even think about.

The heartbreak is in he never changed. Tragedy that a court could be so blind and see only two sweet well dressed(due to her family)kids used as pawns by a father(newly married) that would to this day brainwash them into believing the heinous lies in order to strip a mother away from her children. We know these kids and decided there was more family on that side and didn’t want our children used as pull aparts. We went against court orders (she was to have two people watch her as only she would be allowed to visit them 6hours a week and no overnight visits) and she declined to see her children under such ridiculous terms. We know all to well what lies had to be said in court. I never got the chance to address any of the allegations that was all imposed on me by the court and it horrifies us that in this great country such an act by a judicial jurisdiction could even take place. FREEDOM AND JUSTICE FOR ALL?

I know people who have gotten married, had children, and right in the middle of life, probably when circumstances were not comfortable, or suitable, or enjoyable, have jumped ship, proclaimed their homosexual lifestyle, and left the life of those who loved them in ruins.

This is what heterosexuals will never understand, I am true to myself and thank GOD never had to experience locking up who I am so others will be more comfortable. I have a straight girlfriend of over 35 years who laughs at me because she has known me from age 18 and saw me cringe as to even the thought of straight sex with a man really makes me want to puke just as all those out there feel the same as to what our lifestyle makes you feel(sorry could not put it in an unblunt way, not my style). Truth be told by all and not television or the movies, does sex really make up who you are or are we past all that? I personally spend a lot more time out of my bedroom don’t you? Wasn’t there a law that we can look back on today and laugh that made us only do one position in making love, after all it’s all about pro creation and I am sure all the hetero’s only do it to conceive right?

You say LGBT individuals are strong. The problem is that people are only strong for the thing they want. So heterosexualism doesn't come easy. Who are you to say that heterosexuals aren't any less strong than you? In fact, maybe you are weaker for bending to the gravity of homosexuality. It's a two way street. And I argue that everything we do in this life is a choice. People are compelled to do things every day; to kill, to fight, to hurt, to damage, to indulge...And a great majority of people resist those urges because they have a mind and they realize their mind controls their actions. Thoughts are thoughts, and thank GOD we don't all act upon our thoughts

I never said hetero’s are less strong, and when we are to marry you will see we're the same as you and want the same things as you, we may divorce as often as you sadly enough and go through all the joys and pains as all. It all starts with the joy of a good marriage and a respect for us to live in what we inherited either by genes or just a brain that makes us who we are since the beginnings of time. And that cute little mommy duck with that daddy duck in the campaign for heterosexual life is just a hoot. Yep, I guess we should stoop so low and change the truths in nature to bend to our needs and yet again screw up what kids will think are the truths of nature.

homosexuality. It's a two way street. And I argue that everything we do in this life is a choice. People are compelled to do things every day; to kill, to fight, to hurt, to damage, to indulge...And a great majority of people resist those urges because they have a mind and they realize their mind controls their actions. Thoughts are thoughts, and thank GOD we don't all act upon our thoughts.

I would have to be brain dead as to have chosen a lifestyle that is so easily looked on as a plague by the dwindling majority thank GOD. I have acted upon my thoughts all throughout past and present posts, NOT EASY, but you have to admit it’s hard to hate when a light goes on somewhere. Compasion for those who are different than you, those are the teachings of universal religion is it not? God gave us the greatest gift already as so many are looking for more in the death of each and every one of us. The Gift is our brain and how we determine to use it. I only ask some to stretch that muscle a bit and think what it might feel like if you were told not to be excepted in society and not able to protect what is yours, YOUR FAMILY. Are we so hateful a society? Soon we will be the country who says one thing but does another or are we already there? FREEDOM FOR ALL live it learn it do it!!! Life is very simple until we reach into our dark selves.

In this case, there was a lot of actions coming self-centered thinking, both ways. I don't see any other way to cut it.

Walk into the light and share what you have with others. I hope some will make the cut.

.

Tempest,
I'm totally with you, but I keep finding the same posts on both this thread and the Proposition 8 thread, with quotes from one to the other. It's difficult to follow that way (and the moderator will eventually chastise you for doing it ) so please don't double post.

Thanks so much!
Dak

I am sorry for the double posts I did not know the rule of just one post please excuse any ignorance in this, thank you!

Did Texas' Gay Marriage Ban Accidentally Ban Straight Marriage, Too?

A Houston lawyer says her state made a "massive mistake" in their Constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage and now everyone in Texas is divorced.

McClatchy reports that Barbara Ann Radnofsky is a Democratic candidate for attorney general who thinks Texas' 2005 ban on gay marriage inadvertently "eliminates marriage in Texas," every single one.

The amendment, approved by the Legislature and overwhelmingly ratified by voters, declares that "marriage in this state shall consist only of the union of one man and one woman." But the troublemaking phrase, as Radnofsky sees it, is Subsection B, which declares:

"This state or a political subdivision of this state may not create or recognize any legal status identical or similar to marriage."

Uh, whoops? Texas' current attorney general, Republican Greg Abbott, stands by the amendment. Others accuse Radnofsky of rabble rousing (Fancy that! Denying innocent couples the legal right to marry makes them very angry.) because the chance of all married Texans becoming unwitting divorcees apparently remains slim:

"It's a silly argument," said Kelly Shackelford, president of the Liberty Legal Institute in Plano. Any lawsuit based on the wording of Subsection B, he said, would have "about one chance in a trillion" of being successful.

But, it'd be pretty funny. [McClatchy]

Tempest, I honestly do appreciate your pains and respect your disposition and hope for a good outcome.

I stand by my point though, which is that your partner has something to do with the current outcome, which is many levels less than desirable. You have to acknowledge that aspect and stop blaming anyone/everyone else for her situation. She helped get herself where she is.

Maybe she didn't understand the level of commitment required when she got married. Maybe she should never have had kids if she couldn't commit to them for a lifetime.

From: cammed
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 07:09 PM
Tempest, I honestly do appreciate your pains and respect your disposition and hope for a good outcome.

We have been extremely happy since we are separated by the craziness in her family. That being her parents with a mom who stated “if I knew you were gay on top of your medical conditions I would have aborted” or a father who was life bound in a wheelchair and saw his daughter as less than himself.

//I stand by my point though, which is that your partner has something to do with the current outcome, which is many levels less than desirable. You have to acknowledge that aspect and stop blaming anyone/everyone else for her situation. She helped get herself where she is.

Oh believe me when I say she got herself in that mess listening to the Mormon religion and trying like hell to do what the church and society expected of her, for the acceptance of her family. Some who know us such as PG, was shocked as to what we went through as written in past posts and I was even being nice not to mention what extreme atrocities he did .Many levels of brutality and less desirable to use your words. We stopped with all the carousel of crazy and went on with our lives 11 years ago. Many would not so understand as we are so happy and financially stable with a lot of healthy growth since those horrid times. But even now a ploy to stir up our world is in play with that side even when we have no dealings with any of them. We moved on and again I only shared this so other heterosexuals could begin to grasp what a life could be when pushed into simply something your not.

Maybe she didn't understand the level of commitment required when she got married. Maybe she should never have had kids if she couldn't commit to them for a lifetime//

What part of 4 generation Mormon did you miss? And the TEMPLE MAIRAGE? Commitment for a woman to live with an abusive husband? A woman should stand by her man? Kids that are now brainwashed by a father and church and her own family as to what she truly is a loving Lesbian of a woman with compassion for all. No we agree she was blinded and tried to mend and make her life something it was not and today our only regret in life is that we should have met sooner and she should have gone to that meeting of LGBT’S when attending college. With your reasoning women who are treated as dirt by a husband should stay the course for the kids and what? How is that good for anyone? In my life my mom stayed the course being the good Catholic and he was abusive to her and to the three of us kids, I carry scares both physically and mentally from that man, it was so bad in that picture perfect world that was soooo acceptable to society that made three siblings end the generic blood line of his namesake and all of us decide not to have children.Hellow? Anyone get the picture here? Your not perfect when you are heterosexual, you are delusional in thinking just because a man and a woman can marry they go off to be what will be viewed as nomal.Only on the outside we all know what happens behind closed doors a lot of times. I know all to well, in my first relationship to a Christian woman her sister who is now part of FOCUSS ON THE FAMILY, had to make sure her daughter would not sit in her husbands lap as it got him erroused.WHAT? I would give anything to have been brought up with two individuals that would love me and see me as intelligent, not the hell I lived in with the continual nickname of Stupid, by a heterosexual couple. It takes more than a paper to make a marriage and we all know that perhaps it is you that has a problem that will be resolved when they find that it is indeed a gene and a make-up of what our maker meant us to be LGBT,when will it stop? We were as women married and the Property of men the whole marriage thing changed and now women have rights, it will grow yet again and we as gays who ALLREADY live in healthy relationships with our now spouses will get to protect our properties and our loved ones, is that really sooo horrible? Or is the problem, men feel and know that they have treated women as dirt and you think in your tiny heads we Lesbians are going to get them? I can’t make a true heterosexual woman a Lesbian, yet we have had a lot of women wish their husband were more like us and go shopping and feel what we feel for each other .Get over it hug and love your wives like there’s no tomorrow and Please put sanctity in marriage back into your commitments we would not even have gotten this far had you been the GREAT examples you make out to be, clue up here!!!

For some reason it came out right in the comment area when typed but got jumbled in post. The // didn't play out right? Checked my side three times hmm ?

Just one of the sad results of the Proposition H8 fight. More hate crimes against LGBT people in Los Angeles County. Oh, I know, if we just would stop demanding our rights, they wouldn't hate us so much. Yeh, right! Even if we made ourselves invisible, they would find an excuse to hate us. We love being hated and having the crap beat out of us though. That's why we all decided to be gay. PG

Los Angeles Times
Overall number of hate crimes drops in L.A. County but crimes against gays increase, new report says
November 19, 2009 | 12:47 pm

Los Angeles County saw an overall 4% drop in hate crimes last year, while crimes against gays, lesbians, bisexuals and transgendered people increased, prompted in part by last November’s highly charged Proposition 8 initiative, the voter-approved ban on same-sex marriage in California, according to a new report released today.

There were 134 sexual-orientation hate crimes reported last year, up from 111 in 2007, and were more likely to be violent than hate crimes motivated by race or religion, according to the annual Hate Crime Report by the Los Angeles County Commission on Human Relations.

“I am very sad to be here today because my presence means that my community – lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people – were horribly impacted by hate crimes in 2008,” Lorri Jean, chief executive of the Los Angeles Gay and Lesbian Center, said at a news conference.

"Anti-gay and anti-transgender hate crimes do not happen in a vacuum," she said, "they happen in the context of a society that still tolerates and even promotes discrimination against us.”

Robin Toma, executive director of the Human Relations Commission, said the data underscored the importance of the recent passage of the Matthew Shepard and James Byrd Jr. Hate Crimes Prevention Act, which extends federal hate crimes protection to victims of sexual orientation crimes.

Much of the overall decrease in hate crimes was connected with a 16% decline in racially motivated crimes. Some of those racial crimes, however, were tied to the presidential campaign Barack Obama.

Across the country there were numerous cases of vandalism, displays of nooses and acts of intimidation, and in Los Angeles eight cases were reported in which homes, cars and other property displaying Obama signs or stickers were vandalized with swastikas or racial slurs, Toma said.

“While hate crimes targeting African Americans decreased, they still remain by far the largest group of hate crime victims,” Toma said. “They are 61% of racial hate crime victims and yet comprise only 9% of the county population.”
Latino victims remained the second-largest targeted group and the percentage of crimes against them remained the same. Crimes targeting Asians, Middle Easterners, Armenians and whites declined.

Although religious hate crimes rose 14%, that increase is attributed to 15 crimes targeting the Church of Scientology, Toma said. Two thirds of those crimes were similar threatening letters sent to various church branches that were likely from the same individual, he said.
“Every year this report provides a startling snapshot of the face of hatred in Los Angeles County,” said Sandra Thomas, president of the commission. She said the report is used by law enforcement officials for training purposes and for directing resources.

When blacks were demanding civil rights in the sixties, the groups against that could all band together under the veil of the KKK.

I propose a group called the HHH (Hate Homosexual Honesty)
Maybe they could use the same robes and principles.

At least these idiots could have a place to go and drink beer and spout hate in the name of religion.

Although we may be of different thought I will send this Thanksgiving Prayer; May all who stand in our way of marriage, be graced by loved ones this coming day and may all who hate be mended, and for all who love, hold those you share your life with . And may this day bring us all harmony in our great country and may God guide us so that we use our wonderful gift to see both sides of heartache and stand together so we as a country grow stronger yet again.

Have a wonderful Thanksgiving and may we all live to fight another day!!!
Hugs to all Tempest

From: OLDGUY
Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 11:39 AM
When blacks were demanding civil rights in the sixties, the groups against that could all band together under the veil of the KKK.

I propose a group called the HHH (Hate Homosexual Honesty)
Maybe they could use the same robes and principles.

At least these idiots could have a place to go and drink beer and spout hate in the name of religion.

I am so with you OLDGUY, Hate Others Over That Error Ritiously Selfish HOOTERS! I like em I have em and it could be a lesbian banner, whatdaya think?

Tempest,
We will have to agree to disagree. You are emotionally attached to this issue, so you are only seeing your side. An outsider would acknowledge that in any human argument, there are two parties, or more. In fact, you can't have much of a fight without two people.

To me, it seems you have a lot of stereotypical views of heterosexuals, Mormons, men, and probably much more. What it boils down to, Tempest, is PEOPLE. We are all just people. One group is not significantly more endowed than another with brilliance, acceptance, perfection, or enlightenment. Mormon's make mistakes. Just like Catholics, Muslims, agnostics, and every other group of people. You constantly refer to this woman's past ties to Mormonism. Yet in her weakness, she made bad decisions; either to be married, or to trade for lesbianism. At least one of those decisions is a blinking, highlighted example of a bad decision; you decide. Whether she is a fourth generation Mormon or not, she was weak.

The fact is that now she is apparently a first generation lesbian. In fact, biologically speaking, there can only be first generation homosexuals. And taking such a lifestyle after children are involved guarantees nothing of the child's love and/or acceptance of the parent. If it wasn't difficult enough to raise children in a traditional household, now you want to add homosexual parenting teenagers to the equation?

I see this as nothing more than action and consequence. Couples of all orientations face struggles and challenges. The only approach to success is an unselfish commitment and devotion, a loyalty in times of trial, and mutual respect. When any of this is missing, the relationship is soon to be over.

From: cammed
Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 03:31 PM
Tempest,
We will have to agree to disagree. You are emotionally attached to this issue, so you are only seeing your side. An outsider would acknowledge that in any human argument, there are two parties, or more. In fact, you can't have much of a fight without two people.

Are you not reading, or just not understanding? I know that it takes two; I am not here to say who is right or wrong only here to tell the story what happens when you try to push down on who you are and to not acknowledge those characteristics. I can see you like to color it to fit your comfort level and won’t acknowledge what is being said here.

To me, it seems you have a lot of stereotypical views of heterosexuals, Mormons, men, and probably much more. What it boils down to, Tempest, is PEOPLE. We are all just people. One group is not significantly more endowed than another with brilliance, acceptance, perfection, or enlightenment. Mormon's make mistakes. Just like Catholics, Muslims, agnostics, and every other group of people. You constantly refer to this woman's past ties to Mormonism. Yet in her weakness, she made bad decisions; either to be married, or to trade for lesbianism. At least one of those decisions is a blinking, highlighted example of a bad decision; you decide. Whether she is a fourth generation Mormon or not, she was weak.

People are just people as stated in my last posts, Trade for LESBIANISM? Okay your thick and aren’t reading my posts. I said she was at fault to be pushed into this mess? You can live life as a lie or be sane.

The fact is that now she is apparently a first generation lesbian. In fact, biologically speaking, there can only be first generation homosexuals.

You couldn’t be more wrong here, I have an aunt that was a Lesbian and she has a grandmother who won’t admit to it because of the church. And If I was a descendent that would be more than likely a homosexual it could very likely be a gene. More than likely it’s in all of us, and won’t come out as they were afraid to come out. It was a lot worse back then than today.

// and taking such a lifestyle after children are involved guarantees nothing of the child's love and/or acceptance of the parent. If it wasn't difficult enough to raise children in a traditional household, now you want to add homosexual parenting teenagers to the equation?

Are you saying a gay person or a Lesbian can’t raise a healthy happy child into adulthood? Are you that miss informed? She was a lesbian and shoved those feelings down from day one of their marriage are you not reading?

I see this as nothing more than action and consequence. Couples of all orientations face struggles and challenges. The only approach to success is an unselfish commitment and devotion, a loyalty in times of trial, and mutual respect. When any of this is missing, the relationship is soon to be over.//

I fully agree that’s why we have been together 15 years and she could only bare it with him 5. We are happy and healthy and able to share what some would only keep under a rug

If you think twisting my words around can change the outcome of my experiences I wish you luck with that. I can outlast most fishermen with stubbornness and I have yet to be skunked. I have always loved a challenge and have never been pushed around by a man (if you met me you would know that, huh PG) and yet you would want a Lesbian to marry a man? I am not so sure who would be more miserable. So you would then want us to be celibate for your comfort level? We have always existed and we are in committed relationships with and without children. So what is accomplished by denial of a paper to give us rights? We have all the rest and you want us to disappear? You would rather slam us in that closet, not unless it’s a coffin and then were back to why we need protection. I love that you think this is a choice, was being heterosexual a choice? Or do you get physically sick of the thought of being homosexual. Well I can assure you I do get physically sick when I think of myself with the opposite sex, just like you. So now you think its about Pro creation I always had a working uterus and could bear children unlike my poor gay brothers so, then it will be an abomination, okay then don't you fight for all those babies as they are the blessings from God? And here is a question. Isn’t it all about religious beliefs after all that? (We do have Separation of Church and State) God would give me a child and I can get inseminated just as heterosexuals have that aid when not blessed as you say. So now were at the hill that you will say were all sick. Wow is that it?